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tomkis1972
New Member
Joined:4 years  ago
Posts: 2
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

Hello
I currently buying a BISF house in Braintree.
It’s my first house and I want to do a huge renovation.
I read the whole forum. It’s amazing.
First time I heard about BISF houses from my agency, when I did first viewing.
At first I was scared. But now, after read this forum I’m really happy that I bought it(I hope).
I’m finished building school and I’m working 7 years in UK as maintenance, 2 years ago I did electrician qualification. I have big experience with refurbish, decorating, plumbing and electric, but I don’t have any experience with BISF houses. I now that just construction is different, but it’s the most important part of house.
I didn’t buy this house yet, but I wont be prepared for everything before I have key in my hand. After this just DO IT!
I hope that all professionals and BISF house owners will help me.
I can promise share on this forum with my all new experience acquired during the renovation.
My first idea:
I read somewhere that in BISF houses I can take of all internal walls.
For me it’s possible because all weight from upstairs take huge steel floor beams.
Can anyone confirm this?
With external walls I want just make additional doors for toilet and doors from existing kitchen to existing toilet make wider about 60cm.
I worry a little about water heater tank between bedrooms 1 and 2. If need I can move it or remove it and buy combi boiler. I will remove fire and chimney.
I put some images to help you understand my idea.
Thanks for any help
Tom

Edited: 3 weeks  ago

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tomkis1972
New Member
Joined:4 years  ago
Posts: 2
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

No one can confirm that I can take of all internal walls?
Write any comments please
Tom


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Ed (Senior Member)
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Joined:6 years  ago
Posts: 60
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

Hi and welcome Tom! It’s a big and exciting task you’ve got! We were in a similar situation two years ago but as I work full time it has been coming on fairly slowly.

Anyway, about the internal walls. Upstairs there are no structural elements in the internal walls at all – all the support for the roof is in the external walls and roof trusses. Downstairs though there are three steel elements in the internal walls.

1) A large steel beam across the width of the house in the top of the wall between the living room and dining room, living room/kitchen and hall/kitchen.

2) A steel stanchion supporting the above beam roughly half way between the doorway opening between the living room and dining room and the chimney flue.

3) Another stanchion where the living room/kitchen/hallway meet.

I found this photo of a BISF house where the wall between the living room and dining room has been removed that shows the first two.

Ed


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tomkis1972
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Joined:4 years  ago
Posts: 2
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

Thank you for your response Ed..
That steel beam across the width of the house looks huge and holds just upstairs floor and walls plus furnitures. It’s not problem form because I will do 2 or 3 ceiling levels, and will be cover. For me problem are that two steel stanchions. Who can tell me what I have to do to remove them?
1. Any local professional building company?
2. Any building designers?
Other question is that I need any permission to do this job before, or any confirmation, assent after this. Who can do that certification?
Tom


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Ed (Senior Member)
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Joined:6 years  ago
Posts: 60
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

Hi Tom, I’ve never heard of anyone removing the two stanchions in the middle of the house. Maybe Marc has more information? In theory you could, if you replaced or supplemented the existing steel beam with a larger one. I would think it would be a very big job, if you could even get it into the house.

Ed


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Grangey (Senior Member)
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Joined:5 years  ago
Posts: 15
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

Tom,

What you are talking about here is HUGELY SIGNIFICANT structural work, by no feet something you should be underestimating by any means what so ever. To get the interior of a BISF house like that of your picture, the only resemblance of a BISF house that would remain is the fact it has some steel beams in the structure. You would have to speak to a highly compitant structural engineer and spent many 10s of thousands of pounds to replace the central steel beam and its associaited support, but this aside the one major factor you would be considering in your plans is the fact that you are buy a SEMI-DETACHED property. Any such would would also have HUGE rammifications on the neighbours stucture and I heighly doubt you would every get the approval to go ahead with it. Not to mention even if you did, the money to do so would make it pointless going to such an effort as you could probably buy a far nicer and more spacious home with the money you would spend.

I know just what youre going through getting excited about possibly buying your first home, I bought this BISF as mine 8 months ago so know how easy it is to get carried away with the plans.

As Ed says, none of the walls upstairs are structural, you can have the entire upstairs open no questions asked and no limitations.

The downstairs has to take the wieght of all this, as a result as already outlined has a large RSJ spanning from one side to the other with THREE beams 1/3 and 2/3s and 3/3ds of the way in, one to the right of where the original fire place is, the other just to the right of where the original kitchen/hallway door is and the final one just in front of the party wall as you will see in my picture. You could probably remove the one at 2/3rds without causing too much impact (I would still consult a structural engineer on this) or at least move it in either direction (which is what I was going to do- and yes it does move easily enough as its just bolted in), but the rest I would say are in too critical structural location for me to every suggest doing it.

My suggestion, sadly, curb your ambition a little, spend your time properly on this website doing research into the structure etc and replan accordingly, you can still have a beautiful home far better than any modern property despite some of the BISF structures limitations that have been outlined here.

Good luck and keep us posted 🙂


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Grangey (Senior Member)
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Joined:5 years  ago
Posts: 15
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

Oh and Tom, sorry to continually be the bearer of bad news, but your plan of opening the kitchen up wider into the outhouse- forget about it, that would involve taking out an entire vertical beam and also the cross brace which gives the structure support against flex.


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Ed (Senior Member)
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Posts: 60
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

I’d forgotten about the stanchion against the party wall! I’m wondering though if the two houses in the pair are exactly mirrored and there will be another against the party wall next door or not. I notice your house is left hand side one too.

Ed


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Grangey (Senior Member)
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Joined:5 years  ago
Posts: 15
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

(All beams highlighted with red arrows) Ie:


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Grangey (Senior Member)
Active Member
Joined:5 years  ago
Posts: 15
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

I’d forgotten about the stanchion against the party wall! I’m wondering though if the two houses in the pair are exactly mirrored and there will be another against the party wall next door or not. I notice your house is left hand side one too. Ed

I almost had too before I hit “post”!. I would also imagine it is mirrored, but given how thin these braces are I would question whether relying on the one the other side could be short sighted potentially, although equally in theory the blockwork goes right up to the RSJ so this may provide a little support too

Grangey


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Ed (Senior Member)
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Posts: 60
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

Hi Grangey, that’s a great photo! I haven’t seen a picture like that of the frame revealed in the kitchen (or corners of the house in general). So far I’ve only revealed the steel frame in the living room and back bedroom, where there are no diagonal braces. What is that wooden band above the door though? I did not find anything like that in the living room.

Also, I’ve been thinking it would be a good idea to remove and replace the steel reveals round the inside of both exterior doors as they are horrible cold bridges (they get covered in condensation) but I wasn’t sure if they are removable from the rest of the steel door surround, so I was wondering if you could tell as you’ve stripped off the wall lining around it.

BTW I thought I’d replied thanking you for your floor beam measurements, but the post seems to have disappeared!

Ed


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Ed (Senior Member)
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Posts: 60
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

I was thinking that there is only one stanchion and one roof truss near the centre of the pair of houses as it wouldn’t make sense to have two right next to each other on either side of the party wall and only one seems to be visible in the photos of prototype houses under construction.

I guess the party wall could take some weight but given it wasn’t intended to, I don’t think it would be wise to rely on it, as it wouldn’t have been built with load-bearing foundations.

Actually, I think if your heart is set on a completely open plan house downstairs, a BISF house is probably one of the best places to start as it is much more lightweight than a traditional house and does not need as much support. It would still be a very big job and personally I wouldn’t recommend it. However, I have seen more challenging projects such as a house with a concrete first floor made open plan using a system of no fewer than four interconnected box-section steel supports.

Ed


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Grangey (Senior Member)
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Posts: 15
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

Ed, you sir are making me reveal far too many pictures of my renovation before I am ready to 😛 but funnily enough I did just that only 2 weeks ago;

Yes the inner door surrounds are removable, however without the walls stripped either side (and even with them out) its no easy task. They are bolted in all the way around, 4 on each vertical, 2 at each side at the top joining the horizontal and the vertical, and then 2 adjoining the vertical. The front door came far easier than the rear, as the nuts were on the inside, however the back door was near increadible touch as the bolts were inside and sized on, so I used an angle grider and drill, and by creating 2 cuts on each section at the top and bottom (and on the top part each side) and gradually drilling out the top screw hole large enough to literally rip the frame away from the top, the rest tore off pretty easily afterwards- bar the top, which still needed alot of man handling.

I will warn that this did damage the innter frame of the door very slighly (as you would expect bending things around) but only visually and I dont exect it to cause any issues when boxing it back in.

As for the wooden beam, this is what the flashing from the original asbestos roof for the outhouse adjoined to- you can just see where the copper flashing is pinned over it to the inside.

As you can tell, I’ve literally gutted this place and rebuilt it from scratch (completely on my own I might add) whilst living in it (..which is a fun experience) and I’ve taken at the moment about 450 pictures throughout the project, so chances are I have a picture of anything youre uncertain of so if theres anything you’d like to know do feel free to ask! 🙂


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Ed (Senior Member)
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Joined:6 years  ago
Posts: 60
20/07/2017 10:45 am  

Thanks Grangey! Sorry for making you reveal things prematurely! Your picture shows just what I was expecting, that the reveal could be removed from the outer part (ie leaving the frame round the outside of the door embedded in the render). I’ll only remove it when renovating the kitchen which won’t be soon as I work full time so finding time is difficult, but thought I’d ask while you had the kitchen gutted. Next on the list is the bathroom so I’ll have to deal with diagonal braces like those in the kitchen.

Strangely enough none of the BISF houses in Bath have typical lean-to outhouses and instead have an outhouse with a flat concrete roof so probably there will not be that wooden beam here.

Ed


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Grangey (Senior Member)
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20/07/2017 10:45 am  

Oh trust me from an insulation perspective those diagonal braces are a royal PAIN, my work around them has been far from ideal but as I have the secondary layer which helps remove thermal bridging Im happy enough that this should help pick up any deficiencies my appauling cutting skills have left behind! Funnily enough the bathroom is the only room I haven’t yet (but Ive done the 3rd bedroom which is of course identical just mirrored) done as Im waiting to start and finish the new downstairs shower room first so I can naturally always have a working bathroom.

The wooden beam sits directly on top of the concrete walls (which in my case are not concrete blocks, but actually nothing more than a metal mesh skimmed both sides with concrete) and is just below the bottom of the steel cladding, so probably wouldnt even be visible looking down from upstairs as you have the steel cross brace the cladding attaches to blocking the view. Depending on the height of the concrete roof though and particularly the flashing, I wouldnt be all that surprised to find something similar in place on yours so it will be interesting to see what you discover. Good luck with it 🙂

Grangey


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